IN 1983, when Torch Song Trilogy won the Tony Award for Best Play, John Glines, who produced Harvey Fierstein’s epic gay play from its humble beginnings way off Broadway, thanked his lover. It was the first time a gay man ever publicly thanked his partner on national television (and it would not be the last). But for John Glines, a writer, producer and co-founder of The Glines, a production company dedicated to nurturing gay art in New York through the 1970’s, 80’s and 90’s, it would become a legendary moment not only in gay history but also in his own life.
Born in Santa Maria, California, on October 11, 1933, Glines grew up in the East Bay area of San Francisco. After attending Yale University, Glines worked as mail boy at Channel 5 in New York City. Glines would go on to write for two well-known children’s TV shows, Captain Kangaroo and Sesame Street.
It wasn’t until he founded The Glines (with Larry Lane and Jerry Tobin) that John Glines—and New York theatre—would take a giant step for gay-kind with his award-winning productions of Torch Song Trilogy, William Hoffman’s As Is, and the musical La Cage aux Folles. The Glines would later produce the First and Second Gay Arts Festivals and Jane Chambers’ acclaimed play Last Summer at Bluefish Cove starring Jean Smart. Glines also took to writing his own plays, many produced Off Broadway, until two of the partners died of complications from AIDS.
The Glines continued to support gay playwrights and artists well into the 1990’s, along the way launching a major AIDS fundraising campaign called “Stamp Out AIDS.” The Glines own farewell coincided with the final New York performance of gay writer and gadfly Quentin Crisp. This Off-Broadway event occurred on Christmas night, 1998, which was also Crisp’s 90th birthday.
Natalie Hope McDonald: You first thanked your partner 25 years ago during the Tony Awards, the first gay person ever to acknowledge his lover on a televised awards show. How have things changed for GLBT people in mainstream media? NHM: After many years in New York theatre, you moved to Thailand. What inspired you to go East? NHM: How is gay life treated in Thailand compared to the U.S.? NHM: Back in your New York days, The Glines became an important production company for launching landmark gay plays. How did it get started? NHM: Did you succeed in this goal? NHM: New York seems like a different place when Torch Song Trilogy first debuted— NHM: Did you ever run into any problems with gay content? NHM: Torch Song Trilogy’s writer and lead actor Harvey Fierstein has since played Mrs. Claus in the Macy’s Thanksgiving Day parade. And he was a drag queen housewife in Hairspray. NHM: Among gay critics, there’s a discussion about the relevance of gay-themed art today. Some believe it’s best to integrate work into a more mainstream platform rather than a gay niche. Your own plays’ success depended largely on diverse theatre audiences. What are your thoughts on this? NHM: What are you most proud of in your life? NHM: Some people may not know that you also wrote for Captain Kangaroo. NHM: What’s next for you? Natalie Hope McDonald is a freelance writer and editor based in Philadelphia.
John Glines: It’s infinitely better. Not only is it a cliché now to thank your same-sex lover, but the ratings don’t plummet like they did in 1983. And as far as I know, nobody gets death threats like I got. Of course, the best example of the acceptance of gays is Will & Grace, which was a success around the world. And of course there’s Brokeback Mountain, another international hit. Even my redneck brother who used to hate “fags” now sends me e-mail with Brokeback Mountain jokes, the kind that only gay people used to make (“Ride ’em, cowboy!”).
JG: I first came to Thailand in February of 1999 for ten days. I loved it and wanted to come back as soon as possible, but I couldn’t afford it. I put up a website that offered a tour of Thailand, and I used Bangkok’s first Gay and Lesbian Festival as the hook. Five people signed up. Later, I was spending roughly six months in New York City and six months in Thailand. And I’d met my Thai lover. Three years ago, I moved into the apartment where I still live in Bangkok.
JG: In many ways it’s quite matter-of-fact. There didn’t used to be a word for “gay” in Thai. There was sex between individuals of the same sex, but that didn’t define a person. Also, Thailand is a Buddhist country. There’s no intolerant Christian Right. The Buddha taught: “Love all, serve all.” In Thailand there are many katoeys—men who live as women. Some have had sexual reassignment surgery, most have not. But they are accepted by society. They’re called the Third Sex. Many work in the entertainment business. Katoeys date far back into Thailand’s past, when they were regular features of temple fairs, rather like the actors in plays put on in front of cathedrals in medieval Europe. The actors were not considered respectable, but they had a job that everyone enjoyed. But most katoeys work in the service industry. They’re saleswomen—yes, they’re referred to as feminine—guides, receptionists, beauty salon workers, etc. And another thing: in New York, as an older gay man, I’m totally off the market. In Thailand, I am the market. Thailand is a heady mix of sexuality and spiritually, which suits me perfectly.
JG: The Glines was founded in 1975 by Larry Lane, Jerry Tobin, and me. It was originally a gay arts center, because in those days there was no place to exhibit gay paintings, no place to hear gay poets read their work, no place for gay choreography, and not many places for gay plays. Tosos [The Other Side of Silence] was the great exception. And in a sense, The Glines was a child of tosos in that Doric Wilson, the founder and artistic director of tosos, was my mentor in the workings of Off Off Broadway and gay theatre, and both Barry and Jerry had worked at tosos. The main goal of The Glines was to create and present gay art in order to develop positive self-images and dispel negative stereotyping. As others took up the cause in other artistic fields, The Glines became only a producer of plays. A secondary goal of the company was to prove that a gay play could be commercially viable.
JG: Torch Song Trilogy went to Broadway, played for three years, and won Tony Awards for Best Play and Best Actor, plus Drama Desk Awards and practically every other theatre award for 1983. Also, As Is, co-produced with Circle Rep, was on Broadway and won a Drama Desk for Best Play of 1985, and Whoop-Dee-Doo!, co-produced with Postage Stamp Xtravaganzas, won a Drama Desk for Outstanding Musical Revue for the 1993–94 season. I remember that while Torch Song and As Is were running simultaneously on Broadway, a one-man show about Babe Ruth opened and was a resounding failure. The producer explained that it was because the play wasn’t gay! It was nice for a change to be on the other end of the stick, as it were.
JG: One reason I called the organization The Glines was to be personally out and open, because at the time many actors and playwrights didn’t want to use their real names when working in the gay arts. But since I was using my real name—and I was a writer for Sesame Street at the time—I insisted that they use their real names.
JG: When The Glines was producing my musical Gulp!, in which Larry Lane was playing the lead—and subsequently became my lover and co-producer—The New York Times wouldn’t accept our ad for the show. I called it “a gay musical.” Can’t use the word “gay,” said The Times. I suggested “a homosexual musical,” which was not very musical to the ear or eye, but it was worth a try. The Times still said no. After Torch Song opened, and Mel Gussow of The Times, and the first major critic to review the show, gave it a rave, The Times was happy to accept our ads. Eventually, they even took to using the word “gay” in any context. It’s now in their style book.
JG: Harvey has always been bigger than life, and with the success of Torch Song, La Cage aux Folles, and Hairspray, his appearances on film and TV, he’s gained national attention that he’s parlayed into being an outspoken crusader for gay rights. So when Harvey puts on a dress, it’s more than for laughs. It makes a statement that he never ceases to make: give us equality, give us our rights, we’re as good as you are, only wittier.
JG: I agree that gay-themed work should be in the mainstream, but it already is. Look at Will & Grace. Look at Brokeback Mountain. It reminds me of Quentin Crisp, who didn’t believe in “gay pride.” He said, “What’s to be proud of? Are you proud you have two ears? Two arms? Two legs? That’s just the way you are.”
JG: That I have tried to enlighten people. When people don’t get the connection between children’s TV and gay theatre, I point out that it’s a matter of enlightening people. The other thing is that I’ve always tried to have jai dee, which is Thai for “good heart.” I’ve been a pretty good friend and not a bad boss to a lot of people.
JG: I started work as a staff writer in December 1964 and wrote for the show until early 1972. It was tough going at first, but eventually I learned the show, and thanks to the head writer, Bob Colleary, I really learned how to write. I left the Captain to have a musical of mine produced Off Broadway, as a fellow writer had done. But whereas his show, You’re a Good Man, Charlie Brown, was a smash hit, mine was pummeled by the critics and died a peaceful death three days later. After that, I got various jobs writing for and advising on children’s television, had my play In the Desert of My Soul published by Dramatists Play Service, worked Off Off Broadway as a playwright and director, was even the head writer for a PBS special out of Pittsburgh. In 1978, I was hired by Children’s Television Workshop as a staff writer for Sesame Street, and for a time I was a creative consultant on a science show being developed, which eventually became 3-2-1 contact. One of the last things I did on Sesame Street was to name a little red Muppet who had just been created. I named him Elmo.
JG: Perhaps an autobiography or a biography. Otherwise, nothing planned except to continue enjoying my retirement. But I wouldn’t dare predict the future because my life has been one surprise after another.
